Consider this a 4th of July present for any patsocs wanting to infiltrate Lemmygrad.

The CIA is probably going to use patsocs to infiltrate marxist groups and distract the public.

Marxist parties in the U.S should hopefully start banning them soon.

Unless you’re a Patsoc as in Socialism with Patrick Star characteristics. Then knock yourself out.

I have been wanting to share this so this seems like the thread to do it.

I am literally descended from a family which was given land multiple times over our history (a family member in every war since the french & indian war… until me) for fighting as “patriots”… I know what the fuck I am talking about when I say that we shouldn’t be proud or embrace or normalize that shit. I have literally spent the last 10 years wrestling with this, and anyone who says that our history is compatible with leftist movements doesn’t know what they’re talking about. As it stands today in 2022, almost everything Americans think we know about our history is a lie to buttress the present system, and tha patsocs are saying we can create socialism without dismantling the agreed upon lies of our dirty past… Fuck off, just not even in the right universe. The collective stories we tell ourselves about our past is the sky above our heads and provides us with the stars by which we understand our world. Alexander Nevsky was important to the USSR because he fought the Teutonic colonizers off. Imagine a world where the Teutonic Knights won, then 200 years later of genocidal teutonic rule, some german dude living in Russia is saying, “we don’t have to be ashamed of our teutonic knight forebears, they were actually tricked into invading.” Pure insanity.

Trying to coddle the conscience/psyche of the average white american at the expense of acknowledging the humanity and the material realities of the natives and other POC is irreconcileable with Marxism. At the core of liberalism lies dehumanization.

Overall, it just felt like some of the patsoc/and their defenders were being deliberately obtuse in refusing to internalize the data many people on here were patiently offering them time after time. There is an arrogance of trying to tell american socialists how our country really works from abroad. I would never take the liberty to explain something like that to MLs from other nationalities. I think there were definitely some things lost in a lack of defining the concepts being discussed, but also a lot of baiting and bad faith discussions and overall very little dialectical analysis. I actually think a couple of those accounts were pushing a similarly deliberately divisive “pro-russia at the expense of any analysis” line that was annoying as hell some months ago. In fact, I think that was largely an artificial divide - people being like “wait, can someone explain why Russia isn’t imperialist for the 80th time this week?” and then in the comments - “Fuck you russia can do no wrong”… just out of place on here imo.

All that to say: I agree.

Edit: also, I repeatedly saw things like, “this is dividing our community” and it wasn’t, it was like 5 accounts who were trying to steer the opinions of everyone else on this specific topic

I am an admin on Lemmygrad and I stand behind this message as well.

LG admin here to say patriotism for countries like Palestine, Afghanistan, Vietnam, etc. is acceptable as they were colonized by invaders and “patriotism” for those countries is solidarity with indigenous and local populations and their ways of life, however patriotism for countries like the US, the UK, most of Europe, ETC is not and can not be acceptable, because to be “patriotic” for them you must accept the rape, murder, and theft of the indigenous populations they invaded.

Until the US comes under a red banner, American Patriotism will only stand as an acceptance of the manifest destiny pillaging of Natives, the Jim Crow laws that still in certain ways exist today, the recent overturning of Abortion, etc. Marxism and patriotism for the US are like oil and water, and those who try to mix the two have no business here.

Well well well… 🤔

Nice. 😏

As a cracker settler… Nice.

As soon as I learned the most basic beginnings of the Labor Aristocracy, a year or so ago, I competely dropped any semblance of patriotism dwelling inside of me. It made me think, why should our proletariat of the first world take priority over the third world’s exploitation which in most cases is more exploitative, more dangerous, and grants less individual and mass freedoms. And obviously the first world proletariat works hard and they absolutely must be freed, but not at the expense of the third world. Sweden is a decent example. They (not for covid) care about wages and benefits and good stuff like that, but ask them about helping Africa or something and you’ll hear nothing. USA is a great example of the unequal order of labor. The Oil Workers benefit from putting pipelines through indigenous lands. It’s cheapest to put the pipeline on a straight path, in some cases right thru indigenous land, thus needing less construction to reroute and profit is higher. Let’s say that the oil company(humor me for a sec) increases wages because of the massive profits. What we see is the indigenous community being subjugated and tosses to the side for the benefit of the 1st world proletariat. PatSoc can come off as correct when talking about wanting higher wages and better representation, but it’s like the Sex Trade in the fact that when you, the proletarian, have your interests lined up with that of your industry(the petrol industry for “protection of jobs against Climate initiatives” or pimps and johns for “legalization/legitimacy of sex work”) you will be tricked into supporting policies that do not help you but your boss or customers.

This was a critically important move as the PatSocs here were using our communities to platform some of the most insidious rhetoric I’ve seen in a long time. I have no doubt that the recent surge in Patriotic Socialism is connected with Western propaganda bodies. It’s particularly telling that not only were they present arguments that would lead to the US becoming another “National Socialist”/openly fascist state, but that they were also heavily invested in the idea that Europeans were allowed to be Pat Socs because they weren’t on Turtle Island.

The fact that this also was coming to head just as the US is seeing Proud Boys activity increasing is also one of those “coincidences don’t exist” feelings.

This is an honest question:

How quickly do you get banned? I wouldn’t like misinformed people getting kicked out straight away without giving them the chance to debate and learn.

So do they get banned straight away or do they get a chance (given that their statements aren’t completely mental)?

This is the way to go. Thank you for making your position clear and for citing bibliography and sources as well <3

I gotta say all this feels like a big win