The Lemmygrad mod team has deliberated and decided that “patsocs”, especially those claiming the title such as Maupin, Hinckle, and Infrared, are hereby banned and are not welcome on lemmygrad.
This ban does not include those who feel some level of “patriotism” (for lack of a better word) for non-settler states ( namely those who have historically been victims of colonialism ).
Discussions surrounding the topics of settler-colonialism, and decolonization will always be allowed, as long as they don’t veer into the territory of defenses of colonialism, or affinity with colonizer over the colonized.
Here are some Marxist books / resources to learn more about Settler-Colonialism ( Audiobook torrents are linked as well )
Consider this a 4th of July present for any patsocs wanting to infiltrate Lemmygrad.
The wildest take from them was Zionist defense. I never knew, they believe things as silly as the Israeli working class is brainwashed into wanting free houses, they don’t really want them.
How patsocs must think it happens:
“Oh no, I’ve been duped into taking these 5 free acres of land! How did anyone brainwash me into doing this!!”
Exhibit A against that claim: https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2021-09-30/ty-article/.highlight/cleansed-by-the-torah-why-these-afrikaners-became-jews-and-moved-to-israel/0000017f-e2bb-d9aa-afff-fbfb151f0000
Things just haven’t been the same since apartheid ended in South Africa. It’s a good thing Israel is still doing one!
Nice, thx for this. archive.is link
Where are y’all running into these people? I see people who have opened discussion on how to possibly use existing American patriotism as a radicalization tool (I’m against it, but still understand why there are those that see some value in the idea). But I’m fortunate enough not to have run into any of these specifically terrible takes yet. Seriously, who the f are these “socialists” that support Israel?
On here. Literally yesterday. I wouldn’t have believed it either, it was pretty wild tbh.
Like SpaceCowboy said, there were a bunch of these people around here the past few days. If you weren’t there and aren’t seeing anything now that’s because the mods have removed their comments and banned the worst offenders. Look at the modlog if you want to know the details.
This isn’t anything I’ve learned from any patsocs, this is just my own reasoning.
Are they not brainwashed?
I’ve never lived in Israel, but I live in America, I’m a Palestinian American. I’ve spent much of my life hating Americans, especially the middle class and upwards. But over time I’ve seen them as victims too. Yes, they are given special treats from the ruling class, and I’d rather be miserable and helplessly brainwashed with a meal than be the same without a meal. But they suffer. They are isolated from reality, from compassion and comraderie, all of their friends and family and jobs and passions are poisonous black holes. They are human beings made into tools of evil by ruthless conditioning that starts when they are born and ends when they are dead, from every direction and facet of their life. They are not born motherfuckers, they are made that way.
If I applied this thinking to Israelis, this is not a “Zionist defense.”
This is not to say that I think the average American or Israeli etc. etc. gets a pass partaking in imperialism, colonialism, fascism et. al., or that I like them or would want to hang out with them, or that I would hesitate much to pull the trigger when the war heats up. I think the common persons of these entities does more than their fair share spreading misery and destruction…but they have been brainwashed to, conditioned to.
If this is all regarding stuff user SaddamHussein said I think you all are interpreting them in terrible bad faith.
The CIA is probably going to use patsocs to infiltrate marxist groups and distract the public.
Marxist parties in the U.S should hopefully start banning them soon.
They made this with Anarchists and SocDems. And literally the Frankfurt and French School of Critical Thinking were manufactured with the same intention.
Why in particular would the CIA use patsocs specifically?
By turning socialism into a “conservative-friendly” movement, they defang it and take away its revolutionary potential, and easily steer it to social chauvinist directions. There’s a long history of them doing this with labor movements, and this happened in almost every country going back to Lenin’s day.
This is why most of Marxism’s greatest works are polemics against social chauvinists / reactionary “socialists” ( state and rev, the renegade kautsky, reform or revolution, critique of the gotha programme ).
Reread the post text above.
Unless you’re a Patsoc as in Socialism with Patrick Star characteristics. Then knock yourself out.
Obsessed with this image
Someone needs to re-write Langston Hughes’s Lenin poem but make it patrick.
That’s revisionism according to Maoists
I have been wanting to share this so this seems like the thread to do it.
I am literally descended from a family which was given land multiple times over our history (a family member in every war since the french & indian war… until me) for fighting as “patriots”… I know what the fuck I am talking about when I say that we shouldn’t be proud or embrace or normalize that shit. I have literally spent the last 10 years wrestling with this, and anyone who says that our history is compatible with leftist movements doesn’t know what they’re talking about. As it stands today in 2022, almost everything Americans think we know about our history is a lie to buttress the present system, and tha patsocs are saying we can create socialism without dismantling the agreed upon lies of our dirty past… Fuck off, just not even in the right universe. The collective stories we tell ourselves about our past is the sky above our heads and provides us with the stars by which we understand our world. Alexander Nevsky was important to the USSR because he fought the Teutonic colonizers off. Imagine a world where the Teutonic Knights won, then 200 years later of genocidal teutonic rule, some german dude living in Russia is saying, “we don’t have to be ashamed of our teutonic knight forebears, they were actually tricked into invading.” Pure insanity.
Trying to coddle the conscience/psyche of the average white american at the expense of acknowledging the humanity and the material realities of the natives and other POC is irreconcileable with Marxism. At the core of liberalism lies dehumanization.
Overall, it just felt like some of the patsoc/and their defenders were being deliberately obtuse in refusing to internalize the data many people on here were patiently offering them time after time. There is an arrogance of trying to tell american socialists how our country really works from abroad. I would never take the liberty to explain something like that to MLs from other nationalities. I think there were definitely some things lost in a lack of defining the concepts being discussed, but also a lot of baiting and bad faith discussions and overall very little dialectical analysis. I actually think a couple of those accounts were pushing a similarly deliberately divisive “pro-russia at the expense of any analysis” line that was annoying as hell some months ago. In fact, I think that was largely an artificial divide - people being like “wait, can someone explain why Russia isn’t imperialist for the 80th time this week?” and then in the comments - “Fuck you russia can do no wrong”… just out of place on here imo.
All that to say: I agree.
Edit: also, I repeatedly saw things like, “this is dividing our community” and it wasn’t, it was like 5 accounts who were trying to steer the opinions of everyone else on this specific topic
I am an admin on Lemmygrad and I stand behind this message as well.
LG admin here to say patriotism for countries like Palestine, Afghanistan, Vietnam, etc. is acceptable as they were colonized by invaders and “patriotism” for those countries is solidarity with indigenous and local populations and their ways of life, however patriotism for countries like the US, the UK, most of Europe, ETC is not and can not be acceptable, because to be “patriotic” for them you must accept the rape, murder, and theft of the indigenous populations they invaded.
Until the US comes under a red banner, American Patriotism will only stand as an acceptance of the manifest destiny pillaging of Natives, the Jim Crow laws that still in certain ways exist today, the recent overturning of Abortion, etc. Marxism and patriotism for the US are like oil and water, and those who try to mix the two have no business here.
Well well well… 🤔
As a cracker settler… Nice.
As soon as I learned the most basic beginnings of the Labor Aristocracy, a year or so ago, I competely dropped any semblance of patriotism dwelling inside of me. It made me think, why should our proletariat of the first world take priority over the third world’s exploitation which in most cases is more exploitative, more dangerous, and grants less individual and mass freedoms. And obviously the first world proletariat works hard and they absolutely must be freed, but not at the expense of the third world. Sweden is a decent example. They (not for covid) care about wages and benefits and good stuff like that, but ask them about helping Africa or something and you’ll hear nothing. USA is a great example of the unequal order of labor. The Oil Workers benefit from putting pipelines through indigenous lands. It’s cheapest to put the pipeline on a straight path, in some cases right thru indigenous land, thus needing less construction to reroute and profit is higher. Let’s say that the oil company(humor me for a sec) increases wages because of the massive profits. What we see is the indigenous community being subjugated and tosses to the side for the benefit of the 1st world proletariat. PatSoc can come off as correct when talking about wanting higher wages and better representation, but it’s like the Sex Trade in the fact that when you, the proletarian, have your interests lined up with that of your industry(the petrol industry for “protection of jobs against Climate initiatives” or pimps and johns for “legalization/legitimacy of sex work”) you will be tricked into supporting policies that do not help you but your boss or customers.
This was a critically important move as the PatSocs here were using our communities to platform some of the most insidious rhetoric I’ve seen in a long time. I have no doubt that the recent surge in Patriotic Socialism is connected with Western propaganda bodies. It’s particularly telling that not only were they present arguments that would lead to the US becoming another “National Socialist”/openly fascist state, but that they were also heavily invested in the idea that Europeans were allowed to be Pat Socs because they weren’t on Turtle Island.
The fact that this also was coming to head just as the US is seeing Proud Boys activity increasing is also one of those “coincidences don’t exist” feelings.
Patsocs are the new Frankfurters. They are basically the same shit, just adjusted to current context.
This is an honest question:
How quickly do you get banned? I wouldn’t like misinformed people getting kicked out straight away without giving them the chance to debate and learn.
So do they get banned straight away or do they get a chance (given that their statements aren’t completely mental)?
We don’t ban quickly, and if we do, its almost always temp bans, and usually with a warning, which we gave in this case too.
These patsoc threads lasted for days, even though we were warned about a few users in particular months ago.
Of course we’ll never ban anyone trying to learn about this topic.
I would also like to know this, and also if the bans in this particular case are permanent or temporary.
This is the way to go. Thank you for making your position clear and for citing bibliography and sources as well <3
I gotta say all this feels like a big win