Oi bruv, empty yo pockets innit ye. Gimme all yo coins fam.
You keep repeating the same points, so this is the last thing I’ll say.
You keep trying to narrow things down to your own specific definition of your ideal version of patriotism. This version of patriotism that you speak of doesn’t exist in the US. US patriotism is highly jingoistic and inextricably tied to Imperialism. Holding on to it in the hopes that American people suddenly wake up and adopt your socialist version of patriotism
Even the CPUSA, before 1991, followed the USSR line and defended patriotism
This still doesn’t change the reality of the vast difference between the largest imperial power on the planet and a country that had already had it’s revolution and discarded any notions of the former Russian empire. Oh, Abraham Lincoln, truly the shining example of patriotism. The reality is that he was bloodthirsty and furthered the removal and genocide of Native Americans from their land. He said this about freeing slaves, “If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone, I would also do that”. Yes, he was an abolitionist, but only on the contention that he wanted to “save the union” before anything else. You say that you would understand why American communists would hate the flag in a later response to someone else, but you point out the CPUSA waving around the US flag and upholding Lincoln as somehow good things.
While you’re mentioning the CPUSA, they had this nonsense to say about Stalin and Mao, whoops!
You think we are “appeasing the right”? You are literally doing so! What is the argument the right always uses against communists? That we are unpatriotic, that we hate our country, that we are foreign agents. And instead of rejecting that label, as communist parties worldwide do, you embrace it! You say “yes, i am unpatriotic, i do hate America, i want to see America destroyed, i work for China”. You are the one appeasing the right! This is just like those who say “USSR wasnt real socialism”
The leaps you’re making here are unhinged. Who on earth said you were appeasing the right? You’re engaging in reddit level discussion right now. Once again, here’s what I said, patriotism in Imperial core countries is always subordinated to capitalists in times of trouble and war especially. That’s not saying that you’re being a willing participant in that, but that your own perception of patriotism and those alike are irrelevant if it doesn’t align with the aims of Capitalists in times of trouble/ war. Regardless of whatever definition you have of it, nothing will change the inextricable link between American patriotism and American jingoism.
What is the argument the right uses against communists? If you only adopt certain positions based on how reactionaries react to you, then I don’t know what to tell you. I could say “peace is good, i am a communist” and reactionaries would still find a way to flip that 180. I hate the United states, and it should wither away and go the way of the Russian empire.
They serve international billionaires, they refuse to give their people the most basic necessities, theyd rathers serve Wall Street than their country. How is that patriotism? Thats not patriotism, its the opposite.
None of that changes the political reality of what patriotism is in the US, and how it will continue to be used in the US. Once again, trying to cling to your own definition to try co-opt it from capitalist hegemony is like trying to swim upstream against a raging current. It’s futile. Patriotism in the US is and will always be linked to the oppression of people abroad and locally.
Patriotism in the context of fighting in a war of literal self preservation and patriotism in the context of Americans just existing on a day to day basis are pretty different things. Everyday Americans aren’t victims of aggression of foreign invaders. Trying to isolate these quotes and ideas in a vacuum isn’t really encompassing of them in their entirety.
Patriotism has nothing to do with “being proud” of anything.
In America, it very much does, and again trying to isolate these ideas in a vacuum isn’t taking them as a whole. The reality is that in America, Patriotism, nationalism and jingoism might as well be the same thing. If you, as a Spaniard, want to be patriotic based on your understanding of the word then go for it.
despite what fake patriots (meaning the bourgeoisie) would want you to believe, your country is made up of its people, its not an abstract idealistic idea of “America” or any other country
When I say America, I’m talking about the government, it’s long history, foundation of oppression, and the willing participation from individuals in furthering that oppression for their own gain.
“you cant be patriotic of imperial core countries” and that if you do you are proimperialist is ridiculous
I never said this. Go back and read what I said. I said that in times of trouble and in war especially, ideas of patriotism have always been subordinated to the will of capitalists. In America, trying to hold on to the term patriotism in the hopes that people one day wake up and realize that well actually, patriotism is actually this socialist notion of love for your people and national liberation from the bourgeoisie is naive and will always be futile in the end. Trying to maintain your own specific definition of the word and not taking into account the historical and current conditions it exists is like trying to swim against the current. You end up getting swallowed.
Also i dont understand what your last sentence is about, i said nothing about nationalism.
There i meant patriotism, not nationalism. I was in the car typing fast.
I’m a US citizen, and it’s hard for me to see what’s there to be proud of. The identity of the working class? Perhaps, but at that point, it’s being proud of something that, imo, is so far removed from the idea of America. It would be a bit strange for the bolsheviks to fidget over whether they should have been proud of being part of the Russian Empire at one point, and for me, it’s quite the same as patriotism in imperial core countries.
The supposed message of being proud of the working class in imperial core countries always seems to get subordinated to the will of the capitalists in times of trouble and in war especially. Also, I don’t think that nationalism is necessarily a prerequisite to caring for the collective good of people in your country.
That would be super wholesome :) and I would be super down!
What kind of help would you have in mind? I think sharing books and whatnot would be pretty neat, but of course, security concerns exist. Maybe clothes? Tea?
Money is a good one, but I would just be hard to verify certain things over the internet.
I see. I’m currently a tryout for the PSL, and I just subscribe to their take on Stalin and Mao of upholding them and critically taking the works of them and building upon it.
I certainly do understand the function of not doing so to appeal to a more common, if you will, base of people (though I don’t personally agree with it).
It’s definitely worth the watch, though the first few seasons aren’t really fast paced. It’s still funny to watch Saul and his elaborate little schemes. How was the Obi wan series? I honestly haven’t watched the past few star wars movies. The last one I saw was the one where rey first made an appearance.
I’m sorry but I’ve never gone to a right wing protest to network. This person is jumping back and forth between left wing orgs and right wing orgs for what exactly? Giggles?
I can’t speak on the IWW, but I recently took part in some organizing with the PSL. Applied one week, talked over email for a few days, and went organizing the next week. I guess I didn’t get invited to any BBQ’s but the PSL does hold these boba meetups occasionally, but even then, I didn’t sign up to be a pseudo frat bro.
If the right wing icons didn’t spend so much time bashing minorities, I might have believed capitalism works.
do shot that isn’t zoom meetings or reading books
Yeah, this is why reading books is an important part of an org’s curriculum/ program.