Muad, when did i ever deny that the labor aristocracy derive benefits from colonialism and imperialism? I literally said
“Their higher living standard is only because israeli bourgeoisie chose to give them value extracted from palestinian workers, as a way to bribe them into supporting colonialism and genocide, they are the labor aristocracy.”
All i said is that those benefits dont last forever due to the falling rate of profit, meaning that in the future a moment will arrive in which the labor aristocracy doesnt derive this benefit anymore. For this reason, the real long term interest of this labor aristocracy is to stand with the opressed against the bourgeoisie bribing them, since in the long term the bourgeoisie will screw them too, just like they did to the colonized. Thats all i said.
Muad, where did i ever say that “israeli workers have a right to that land”? Please show me where.
But this is beyond the point. What do you have against me Muad? This comment wasnt even a response to you, yet you keep stalking my comments. Are you ok? Do you want a conflict in here that badly? Why not just move on, accepting our disagreements? Why do keep insisting on banning people who have done nothing to you and stand for what you stand? Why do you want to destroy a great educational space? Please relax, life goes on. In a few months you wont even remember about this stupid drama. Dont kill the great space and community we have here, its not worth it.
That is exactly my point. Land is a means of production, which is by definition owned by bourgeoisie. Israeli workers dont own any land, thats why they are workers. Their higher living standard is only because israeli bourgeoisie chose to give them value extracted from palestinian workers, as a way to bribe them into supporting colonialism and genocide, they are the labor aristocracy.
However, this cant last forever, due to falling rate of profit. Once surplus value from colonized palestinians isnt enough to sustain israeli capitalism, they will start extracting value from israeli workers too, thus getting them out of the labor aristocracy. At that point israeli workers will become revolutionary, just like palestinian workers are now.
For this reason, it is in the LONG term interest of israeli workers to support palestinians rising up against israeli colonialism, overthrowing them and establishing a socialist Palestine. The bribing of the labor aristocracy is only in their interests SHORT term, due to the falling rate of profit as explained above. Thus, all workers have the same interests LONG term, both colonized and colonizer, the socialist revolution and establishment of DotP.
The labor aristocracys selfish proimperialist interests can only last a certain time due to falling rate of profit, and is thus only a SHORT term interest, with the LONG term interest being socialism. This is my point, basic marxism leninism.
I agree. Most communist parties worldwide are socially conservative. Besides, the socially conservative CPI menbers arent advocating for killing gays or anything like that, they are just bigoted and against LGBT rights movements, which is wrong sure, but is not fascism, nowhere near it. To not work with MLs who are socially conservative is just stupid, we must unite for antiimperialism and socialism. Once there is economic progress under socialism, there will also inevitably be social progress. What is “white trash”? I dont know what that is. People say hes “proUS” because they think patriotism=supporting your government, which is just wrong. No problem mate, happy to help!
Yeah, as far as i know, hes a normal ML. This is why i never understood the insane hate he gets over here. Pretty much the only difference with people here is that he supports patriotism and hes against land back. Keep in mind tho, that hes not against it because “hes racist against indigenous people”, but rather because of 2 things. First, he believes its unnecessary, since under socialism wealth and land would be redistributed, thus erasing the economical consequences of colonialism, which is what land back is about. Second, he believes that calling white americans “settlers” who need to be “decolonized” makes communism unappealing to white working class americans, so he opposes land back. Now you can agree with that or not, i personally support land back, but nevertheless its a minor disagreement.
On Caleb associating himself with certain movements, its important to understand this. Caleb believes that, since after the collapse of the USSR communism was weakened so much, and especially in the USA, that a tactical alliance of communists with other groups with shared goals is needed. This is not something unique to him, the Russian Communist Party formed together with nationalist parties (including Dugins nazbol party) in 1991 the “National Salvation Front”, a broad antiYeltsin coalition containing communists, socialists, nationalists, nazbols and ultranationalists. They had very different ideologies, from far left to far right, but had 1 goal, toppling Yeltsin the US puppet. Caleb believes this should be done in the US. For example, he has advocated in the past for an alliance between the left and antiwar libertarians/republicans such as Ronald Ernest Paul or Rand Paul. This is why he supported Donald Trump in the 2016 election, because Trump claimed to be antiwar. Ofc that turned out to be a lie, Trump continued the wars in Syria and Yemen, threatened China and assassinated Qassem Soleimani.
So, for the reasons above, Caleb has a kind of “open door policy”, meaning that as long as you are opposed to western imperialism and arent a literal nazi, he will be willing to cooperate with you. This is why he associated with Dugin for example. Dugin is anticommunist, but is also antiwest. Caleb also has a think tank called CPI (Center for Political Innovation). There the policies are stricter, its an explicitly ML antiracist antiimperialist organization. Nevertheless, the organization doesnt take a stance against social conservatism, because Caleb believes the USA communist movement is weak enough to split it even more over abortion or LGBT rights. So yes, you do find some CPI members who are antiabortion or bigoted towards LGBT people. Caleb doesnt share those views tho.
Also to add on Caleb, id say he has a good track record of being a progressive activist. He was an important figure in the 2011 Occupy Wall Street protests. He has traveled to many progressive countries like Venezuela, Cuba, Iran, Russia and China, met with their leadership (low level leadership, like diplomats and ministers) and shown their support for them. He has worked at RT and PressTV for many years. He also traveled to Yemen to report on the brutal crimes committed by the US backed Saudi army.
Yes, its american leftists (both MLs and Vaush type liberals) who call him nazbol. What fascist do you mean? Alexander Dugin? If you mean Dugin, first of all Dugin isnt a fascist, hes more of a feudalist/monarchist i would say, he wants to restore the russian empire, but he isnt like racist, he doesnt wanna exterminate other ethnicities like nazis do. Definetely a reactionary, but not a fascist. Afaik Caleb has associated with Dugin a few times for antiimperialist purposes, but doesnt share his beliefs.
To see Calebs positions i recommend this short talk he had with Vaush. Spoiler alert, Vaush calls him a nazi for not believing the uyghur genocide and supporting China xD
Yeah exactly, trump supporters who arent like white supremacists have been fooled. They know that the system is wrong, but they have been fooled that “coastal commie liberals” are the problem, not capitalism. I mean, you should just listen to Maupin and see for yourself. I have never heard him say anything “problematic”. People call him a fascist because hes an american patriot, but weve already seen that thats bs. Now there are some people associated with him, such as Infrared, that do have certain problematic opinions, such as homophobia or using alt right rhethoric (“globalists” “cabal” “degenerates” and so on), but Caleb doesnt share those opinions.
Yes i agree. Many here often dismiss the trump movement as “just some racist fascists”, but i think thats simplistic. There is a reason the Trump movement has been so successful, even among some nonwhites. While there is certainly a very big chunk of Trump supporters who are straight up bigots and white supremacists, there is also a big chunk that isnt. Working class americans know there is something wrong with the system, but they dont know why. Their indoctrination makes them distrust communism, and i also think this pervasive “antipatriotism” doesnt help either. Many americans do feel indeed patriotic, in the wrong way sure, in a bourgeois way, but you should teach them proletarian patriotism, not just cut them off as “reactionaries”.
Trumps populism, its appeal to “reclaim America” from the “evil liberal democrat elites”, will ofc sound appealing to many working class americans. I think the american communists have forgotten that communism is inherently populist, that simple slogans are needed to rally the masses. Trump knows this, and thats why he was so effective. “America first” resonates perfectly, on the surface at least. American communist need to learn from the Trump movement, take his effective populist strategies, and apply them against the bourgeoisie. After all, it was “Peace, Land and Bread” that won the masses to the bolsheviks. American communists need similar slogans, something like “America is for the people, not for the elites”.
I highly recommend Caleb Maupins youtube channel. Despite idiots here calling him “a nazbol”, he is anything but a nazbol. Hes antiracist, proLGBT, antiimperialist and ML. He has some interesting perspectives on certain issues, highly recommend:
Yeah exactly, its like they cant fathom that white americans are (mostly) proletarians too, and thus too feel proletarian patriotism. I personally believe the USA is a multinational nation. Many different nations, the indigenous nations, the black nation, the chicano nation, the irish nation, the english nation, the italian nation, have now all been united in 1 plurinational nation by 300 years of common history. And while yes, this history has been incredibly exploitative to some of those nations, that doesnt mean a common bond hasnt been created. In Russia, all the cultures oppressed by the Empire had nevertheless a common bond between them and the russian nation, which then resulted in the soviet nation, a common multinational nation. I personally believe a socialist USA should be based on the soviet model. All the languages suppressed in favor of anglocentrism should be revived and made official. Italian, spanish, indigenous languages, should be revived and made official languages, just like it was done in USSR. This is the type of patriotism americans should strive for imo, a patriotism that applies to all americans, english, irish, italian, black, indigenous, a common patriotism that nevertheless recognizes the right of self determination of all the nations oppressed by the bourgeois USA state.
I dont think i have been rude to anyone, but ok. The only person i was rude to is “Makan CPUSA”, but thats because he literally dismissed the Communist Party of Greece, a massive party for which hundreds of thousands of greek communists died for and that hundreds of thousands of greek workers put their faith in, as reactionary just because they are homophobic. This is pure yankee arrogance, it has no other name, and it should be called out, im sure youll agree.
You continue peddling american exceptionalism! So the whole world has socialist patriotism, but not USA, USA is special. I never said Abraham Lincoln or US flag were good or bad. Im not american, its not up to me to choose which patriotic symbols the american people should identify with. If they like Lincoln and USA flag its ok, if they dont its ok. All i said is that american communist parties always used to be patriotic, until very recently when they decided to appeal to liberalism. Thus, its completely false that american patriotism is inherently reactionary, unless you are saying that 1960s CPUSA was reactionary. Why are you quoting a CPUSA article from 2020? Im talking about the CPUSA of the 1960s and 1970s, before CPUSA became full of liberals. Modern day CPUSA rejects patriotism.
Greece is an imperial core country, yet its communist party is very patriotic. Are they reactionary? All european communist parties are patriots. Greece, Spain, Italy, Moldova, Russia, Latvia, Lithuania, etc. Many of these countries are imperial core, so your argument is nonsense. Its an argument invented by post1991 US communists to justify their appeal to liberalism and american exceptionalism. Patriotism, like everything, has a class charachter. You have bourgeois and proletarian patriotism. You are talking about bourgeois patriotism, im talking about proletarian patriotism, which definetely exists in USA. What is it if not, when working class americans love their fellow americans and want to improve their lives, together? You are literally being patriotic right now, by wanting all americans to be free of oppression and exploitation and have good living standards and socialism, idk why you are so hell bent on denying it.
Thanks man, i agree with you. I dont exactly know why americans have this weird view. Some like Caleb Maupin suggest this is promoted by the CIA to divide the american left. This seemed farfetched to me, although lately im thinking its not as unlikely. It could also just be a reaction to the pervasive jingoism and chauvinism that maskerades as “patriotism” in the USA. The people who tend to be the most “patriotic” in USA, the trump alt right, are often racist and white supremacist, so i can see why US leftists would see patriotism negatively. Glad to have helped you consider different perspectives.
You are the one isolating things in a vacuum, ignoring the whole world, engaging in american exceptionalism, that America somehow is different than the rest of the world, patriotism is bad there. Communist parties all around the world recognize this. Here are 3 articles from the Communist Parties of Greece and Spain defending patriotism:
Only in the USA do communist parties deny this reality, and this only extremely recently. Even the CPUSA, before 1991, followed the USSR line and defended patriotism. There are hundreds of photos of CPUSA meetings in the 1960s 1970s with american flags everywhere and a huge bust of Abraham Lincoln. You think we are “appeasing the right”? You are literally doing so! What is the argument the right always uses against communists? That we are unpatriotic, that we hate our country, that we are foreign agents. And instead of rejecting that label, as communist parties worldwide do, you embrace it! You say “yes, i am unpatriotic, i do hate America, i want to see America destroyed, i work for China”. You are the one appeasing the right! This is just like those who say “USSR wasnt real socialism”, ceding territory to the liberals in the hopes of winning them over.
We arent using a “alternative definition of patriotism”, we are literally using its normal definiton. Patriotism is loving your country. How is wanting all to have equal rights, free healthcare, full employment, true democracy and good living standards not loving your country? Lenin made a clear distinction between socialist and bourgeois patriotism. By denying that socialist patriotism exists in the USA you are literally engaging in american exceptionalism. You say patriotism has to do with the US government. Yet, even using liberal definitions of patriotism, how can the US government be patriotic? They serve international billionaires, they refuse to give their people the most basic necessities, theyd rathers serve Wall Street than their country. How is that patriotism? Thats not patriotism, its the opposite. Patriotism is fighting for your country, your people, so that they can have a good life and be proud of the society they live in. How is that not communism? You dont love your people or what? If so, why are you even a communist? What is there more patriotic than wanting to help your fellow countrymen, even if you dont know them? How is that not something a communist would do?
Thats what you dont understand. Patriotism has nothing to do with your government. For those in imperial core countries, revolutionary defeatism IS PATRIOTIC. Thats what Mao is saying right there: “To bring about the defeat of the japanese aggressors and of Hitler by every possible means IS IN THE INTERESTS of the japanese and german people”. There is nothing unpatriotic about revolutionary defeatism, because revolutionary defeatism is in the interests of the people, and what is patriotism if not fighting for the interests of your people? Patriotism isnt supporting wars by your imperialist government, thats bourgeois “patriotism”, as Mao also clearly states. Every communist party around the world recognizes this, its just you weirdo yankees who deny this.
Thanks. I hope we can keep the community united despite heavy disagreements and respect each others opinion.